2009-04-30 James W. Anderson, MD Diabetes Reversal
“Can A High Carbohydrate, High Fiber Diet Prevent, Control Or Reverse Diabetes?”
An Interview With James W. Anderson, M.D.
April 30, 2009, By Kirkham R. Hamilton, PA-C
© copyright 2009, Prescription 2000, Inc.,
www.prescription2000.com
Download as PDF | Return to Audio Interview
KIRK HAMILTON: Welcome to Staying Healthy Today Radio, a health oriented show committed to bringing you each week key experts in the fields of nutrition, prevention and integrated medicine.
Hi. My name is Kirk Hamilton, your host on Staying Healthy Today. Our mission is simple. To provide you credible and useable health information from interviews and our educational resources at Prescription2000.com, to help you Stay and Be Well in the Busy modern world. Please take a few moments before or after listening to this interview to browse through the Prescription2000.com website, the home of Staying Healthy Radio, for our free health educational services. For example, sign up for our free weekly health letter called “Rx2000 One Liners.”
We are very fortunate today to have as our guest Dr. James W. Anderson, Professor Emeritus at the University of Kentucky. Dr. Anderson did his medical training at Northwestern Medical School and did an Endocrine Fellowship at the Mayo Clinic. Currently, he is very interested in studying ways to reduce blood cholesterol, the use of soy protein in diabetes, and new treatments for obesity in adults and teens, and the role of antioxidants in atherosclerosis. Dr. Anderson has been quite prolific, publishing over 220 research articles and over 150 book chapters, educational articles and books. Dr. Anderson has been married to his wife, Gaye, for 52 years. He has two children and five grandchildren. The topic for today’s show is “Can a high carbohydrate, high fiber diet prevent, control or reverse diabetes?" And the second question is, “Is fat the real problem in diabetes or carbohydrates?”
KIRK HAMILTON: I would like to welcome Dr. Anderson. Thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this important topic on diabetes.
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: Thank you.
KIRK HAMILTON: I would like to take a moment or two to go over the kind of astounding facts about diabetes and whether you might call it an epidemic or not. I got these off the ADA website. Almost 24 million children and adults in the United States have diabetes, that’s 8% of the population approximately. 17.9 million of those have been diagnosed, but 5.7 million aren’t even aware they have the illness. Then there’s a condition called pre-diabetes which maybe you can explain. My understanding, it’s a blood sugar between 100 and 125 fasting, but there’s some 57 million or 19% of the population who have this condition. So, more than a quarter of the U.S. population has either diabetes or pre-diabetes, and that’s a pretty dramatic figure.
Then maybe we can get into what type II and type I diabetes are. In fact, why don’t you just describe to me what diabetes is and the difference between type I and type II and pre-diabetes.
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: I think, as you said, Kirk, about half of Americans are destined to get diabetes. And most of them will get type II diabetes. Type I diabetes is when the pancreas that makes the insulin that regulates the blood sugar, when it loses its capacity to make insulin. So basically in people, unfortunate children and young adults who develop type I diabetes, their pancreas runs out of gas and they can’t make insulin. We really don’t know much about what causes it and we really don’t know that much about prevention. Type II diabetes, also called adult-onset diabetes, although unfortunately more teenagers are getting it now because of obesity and poor diet, type II diabetes is when the body becomes resistant to the action of insulin. That is, insulin doesn’t work as well in the muscle and the liver, so basically it takes more and more insulin to regulate the blood sugar. In that case, the pancreas just sort of becomes exhausted. It just runs out of gas, and so type II diabetes is when over a period of years the pancreas decreases its ability to produce enough insulin. Insulin is sort of the key that promotes sugar going into muscles and into the liver, and when that key is not there, glucose accumulates in the blood and raising blood sugar leading to diabetes. Type II diabetes is just a resistance to the action of insulin, largely at the muscle level because after meals, about 90% of the glucose from the sugar we eat, the carbohydrate we eat, is stored in muscles as glycogen. If glucose can’t get into the muscles, then it accumulates in the blood.
KIRK HAMILTON: What about this condition called pre-diabetes, and if you have it -- as large group of people do -- is there any health risk in that transition period from pre-diabetes to diabetes?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: Yes. In pre-diabetes, even with the blood sugar only slightly elevated, carries with it increased risks of heart attacks, stroke, and people will start getting damage to tissues like the nerves. You can get nerve problems called neuropathy, that is, the nerves to the legs and feet. They can become damaged just due to pre-diabetes, just due to sudden elevations in blood sugar. So pre-diabetes is something that we need to be more aggressive in diagnosing and we need to jump on it with both feet and tell people with pre-diabetes that they can prevent, they can delay the onset of diabetes by years through lifestyle changes. We need to be educating people about pre-diabetes as a serious condition. It’s something that people should make important lifestyle changes to reduce fat, reduce red meat intake, and get more physical activity to avoid going onto the bad disease of diabetes.
KIRK HAMILTON: With that in mind, and type II diabetes or adult-onset diabetes being maybe 90 to 90% of the diabetic incidence, is this a genetic disorder or is this a lifestyle disorder of the 20th century, or of modern society?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: Type II diabetes is a more strongly inherited condition than type I diabetes actually. Many people aren’t aware of that. But probably more than 50% of people will have a tendency towards type II diabetes. It’s genetic. That doesn’t mean that they will go on to develop diabetes, but they have this tendency if they don’t recognize it and make important lifestyle changes, they are destined to get diabetes.
KIRK HAMILTON: What are the dietary changes that have occurred over the last maybe 50, 60 or even 100 years that have increased the likelihood of these types of individuals to develop type II diabetes?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: I think since the first Great Depression and after World War II the affluence of the United States grew and basically food became more affordable with agro-business and all. Food became more affordable and it cost a smaller percentage of the worker’s paycheck and so people could buy rich foods and this happened all over the world. People had very limited intake of beef and pork because it was so expensive -- but it became less expensive, more affordable, and people started eating these richer foods, the beef, the pork, the high-fat dairy, and then the food industry starting making affordable snacks and the creation of all sorts of snacks that are readily available. So I think that on the diet side, the ready availability of food, the ubiquitous availability of food is a big problem. Then on the other side is physical activity. I think these two are in tandem. I think that basically as Americans became more affluent, as we restructured our cities with suburbs where you have to drive to do anything, I think that physical activity has declined. Now there’s two cars in every family so people don’t do physical activity. The Nebraska farmer a few generations ago walked a 100 miles a week. Now he sits on his tractor and it does most of this. I think that the high availability of food, especially more rich, high fat foods, coupled with the decreased need to do physical activity is the problem. Now if you want to go out to lunch with somebody, you text message them or you email them a few doors down the hall rather than walk down to ask them if they want to do lunch today. So I think those two things, the inexpensive nature of food, the character of food with higher fat items, and the wide availability of fat foods, plus the McDonald’s and the chains that have made it cheaper to eat at the fast food places than it is to eat at home.
KIRK HAMILTON: Tell me then, is it a matter of just excess calories being so easily available or -- let’s just start with fat and then we will go to carbohydrate. Is there something in fat that aggravates the diabetic condition in-and-of itself, not just excess calories?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: Yes. The old wives’ tale was that eating sugar causes diabetes, but this is just not true. We would have to say that eating fat causes diabetes. Basically, in about 1916, Dr. Elliott P. Joslin, who founded the Joslin Clinic, said from an excess of fat in the diet people get diabetes, and from an excess of fat people die from diabetes. I translate that now 90 years later that the fat we eat causes diabetes and the fat we wear leads to early death from diabetes. I think fat is the problem. Dr. George Blackburn at Harvard recently wrote an editorial about fat is the problem. Let’s recognize that. The fat we eat, the fat we wear, is our major contributor to our health problems. You know, sugar cane eaters, sugar cane workers survive on sugar. They chew the sugar cane, they’re very active, and they rarely get diabetes. I think that eating high carbohydrates -- the countries where 70% of energy comes from carbohydrates, traditionally the Orient, East India, basically those areas had extremely low rates of diabetes until higher fat foods became affordable and they changed their diet. Oil was a rarity in China, but as oil became available and they started cooking with it more and more, the fat intake in China has gone up dramatically in the last 30 years. As it turns out the Indians, the East Indians, the Oriental people have a stronger genetic tendency for diabetes than do Caucasians or the Northern Europeans. The Northern Europeans have really the lowest risk for diabetes genetically, so as we see Latin American countries and in the Middle East and the Far East, those people are developing diabetes because as they become more affluent, they eat more fat, are less physically active, and their genetics are showing up.
KIRK HAMILTON: Is there something in the fat? For example, I interviewed Dr. Barnard and we talked about intramyocellular fat, in other words fat inside the cell, specifically a muscle cell, and it acts like kind of glue in the lock and key mechanism for insulin to allow sugar into the cell. So, is it actually something in the fat, or is it excess calories because fat is more than twice the calories of a carbohydrate or protein?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: I think it’s any type of fat basically. It’s difficult for the body to make fat from carbohydrate. It requires a lot of energy. The body would much rather just take fat in the small intestines and beak it down into the fatty acid molecules and transport those. Those can be taken up quickly by muscles and by the liver, and so fat accumulates in muscles and in liver. Two-thirds of overweight people have fatty liver. 95% of severely obese people have what we call non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. That’s just simple accumulation of extra excess fat in the liver. The fastest and easiest way to get that is to eat a high fat diet.
It’s extremely difficult to get that with a very high carbohydrate diet, because it just takes so much energy and effort for the body to make new fat that it just doesn’t do it readily. But accumulation of fat, especially in the muscles, leads to insulin resistance and basically muscles draw best on carbohydrate, on sugar. You don’t see marathoners taking or chewing on lard, or chewing some sort of fat for energy. They need carbohydrates. Those muscles need carbohydrate desperately when you’re doing a marathon. They don’t need fat, because carbohydrate is the preferred energy source.
KIRK HAMILTON: Let’s stay on the fat concept then for a second. I understand total meat consumption has still gone up over the last century, added fats and oils are prolific as a dietary change over the last century. What about good fat? For example, we hear about the Mediterranean diet and the extra virgin olive oil, or we know that communities that consume nuts and seeds have lower risks of heart disease. So, is there a good fat?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: I think that the data shows that the monounsaturated fats like from olive oil are the preferred or the most healthy sort of fat. But unfortunately I am not a fat advocate. I’m not a nut, seed, olive oil advocate because I’ve critically looked at the Mediterranean diet studies and there have been a number of recent studies, and what they show is that the Mediterranean diet is a low meat diet, and it contains a lot of alcohol, and basically when you look at those studies, alcohol intake is the strongest predictor of health. We know that, and I’m a Baptist – charged with, you know, promoting alcohol intake, but higher intakes of alcohol are associated with less diabetes and with less heart disease, fewer strokes. Basically I think in the Mediterranean diet two factors jump out. One is that the higher alcohol intake is a protector and secondly the higher consumption of carbohydrates and the lower intake of fat, of total fat, is a major protector. When you look at those studies carefully, olive oil doesn’t, the monounsaturated fats don’t jump out as a major component of that diet that’s protective. And now, the Spanish workers are observing that people who consume more olive oil have more obesity. I mean fat is the problem with obesity. Fat is the major contributor to obesity. And even olive oil, if you tell people to start using olive oil, fat is tasty and so they start using excess fat. I’m resistant to push olive oil. I think and I tell people that olive oil, canola oil are the preferred cooking oils, and that when they have choice, they should select things that contain more monounsaturated fats like olive oil or canola oil, and avoid saturated fats and monounsaturated are preferred to even polyunsaturated. We get polyunsaturated from our vegetables and our vegetable products.
KIRK HAMILTON: Let me switch tracks here then a little bit. I’ve got that fat is a bit of an issue with you and it’s very clear. Let’s talk about carbohydrates because we have a “carbo phobia” in this country and I was always amazed because when I first heard of your HCF diet probably in the mid 80s, and I know it’s been around longer than that, all of a sudden here’s this diet regimen by an esteemed professor and it made sense. Then all of a sudden we had this craze where carbohydrate, and I think we might be coming out of it a little bit, but people were and are just paranoid of them. Can you explain this?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: I think Dr. Atkins was a brilliant man and in 1972 his first book came out. I think the Atkins diet didn’t really hit the rage for 20 years. But I think in the early 90s, his revised book really began The Atkins Diet craze. I think basically people loved the Atkins diet because they could eat what they really loved. People love high fat foods and basically I think Dr. Atkins contributed very strongly to this carbohydrate phobia. I think that was very unfortunate. I will give Dr. Atkins and the Atkins diet credit because it did teach us that protein is satiating. Of carbohydrate, protein and fat, fat has no sort of satiating values. It doesn’t cause a sense of fullness. Carbohydrate does some, but protein is the most filling or most satiating food we can eat. So we learned that from the Atkins diet that we need to on weight reduction diets to get people to eat more protein. That source is animal protein or nonfat dairy protein. I think that we did learn that. But I think that even health professionals -- it adversely affected the diabetes issue because many nutritionists and dieticians got on the bandwagon and said, well, you know, that sugar and carbohydrate is what raise the blood sugar, so we should tell diabetics to eat less sugar and carbohydrates. Well that’s not what the science shows. I think that David Jenkins and I, and Dr. Bernard have shown that basically with higher carbohydrate diets. You know, our studies beginning in 1976 clearly showed that high carbohydrate diets lead to improvement of glucose metabolism and we showed that even in type I diabetes. We did artificial pancreas studies where we connected people to a machine, an artificial pancreas, that was able to keep their blood sugar in a normal range by giving them insulin to regulate their sugar. It measured their blood sugar every minute and it adjusted their insulin infusion to normalize their blood sugar. We found that it was clear that our high carbohydrate, high fiber diet lowered the insulin needs of people with type I diabetes, who were totally insulin dependent type I diabetics. Our research over that 10 year period from 1976 to 1986 showed that in type I diabetes our diets lowered insulin requirements by 44%. Of course, during that time, we were taking two-thirds of type II diabetes, adult diabetes, off of insulin.
Our studies showed clearly that high carbohydrate diets lower insulin needs, improve blood sugar, and they dramatically lowered blood fats. Our diets are very protective from all the diseases, from diabetes to heart disease to stroke to hypertension to breast and colon cancer. These are diets (high fiber, high carbohydrate) that are protective. I’ve only been a vegetarian for two years now. I’m a slow learner, but basically I think that we’ve not really advocated vegan or vegetarian diets. We have recommended prudent use of animal products. I think that the data is becoming so clear that red meat is the major poison in our diet and that red meat is a contributor for all of these diseases I just mentioned, diabetes, heart disease, stroke, cancer, hypertension and obesity. The red meat that is in sausage, prepared meats, those are the worst things that people can eat. Those are what people love, but unfortunately those are what are the major villains in our diet.
KIRK HAMILTON: Let me stay on carbohydrates for a moment. I want to ask you, are there differences in the types of carbohydrates? Does that mean something to you in the overall scheme of things? Complex versus refined white flour bread products, let’s say. Confectionary foods with regular bleached flour versus a whole grain. Can you talk about that?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: I think in my view there has been too much concern about refined carbohydrates, but I will say that the evidence is beginning to suggest that high fructose corn syrup is associated with a higher risk for diabetes. I think whether that means that it’s the high fructose corn syrup or whether it’s the extra calories, it’s hard to sort that out. I think basically we recommend that people get about two-thirds of their carbohydrates from complex carbohydrates like oatmeal, whole grains, beans, potatoes, and those sorts of things. Starchy carbohydrates. I think that when we start talking about simple carbohydrates, fruits and vegetables, most vegetables contain largely are simple carbohydrates and acceptable. I eat eight to ten servings of fruit and vegetables a day. I think that’s very healthy and I think that those are protective against many of these diseases. I think we shouldn’t steer people away from fruits and vegetables. I think they are very important. But I think that some of the fruit juices are mainly sugar water, are not good fruits. I think that eating whole fruits is very healthy and I even tell people with diabetes that’s fine.
KIRK HAMILTON: Let me ask you then about a component that would come with a whole grain, which would be fiber. I know your diet has that as part of its title. Explain to me the role of fiber in managing blood sugar or obesity?
.
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: Fiber has important roles in smoothing out the blood sugar and most types of fiber contribute to improving blood sugar after meals, so basically after high fiber meals your blood sugar doesn’t go up as high as it would after the same amount of carbohydrate with no fiber. Secondly, whole grains are nature’s packaging of phytochemicals that have many protective benefits. When you refine flour, you strip out many of the important health promoting minerals such as magnesium, chromium, that sort of thing, and also some of the vitamins. I think that whole grains are nature’s ideal package of nutrients. I have bad-mouthed red meat as being the villain in the diet. Whole grains are coming out clearly as the most protective thing we can eat. I think that people who eat more whole grains have less heart disease, less stroke, less diabetes, less obesity, less breast cancer, less hypertension, and so on down the road. So in mentioning whole grains I’m mainly talking about wheat. Most of the source of whole grains in the United States and most countries is still wheat. Not necessarily all over the world, but in most of your countries, when we talk about whole grains, 90% of the time we’re talking about whole grain wheat. I still think that oats have a unique benefit that surpasses all other whole grains in that if you talk about the whole array of health protection, oats and oat bran have more potency in reducing the risk for heart disease, stroke, diabetes, obesity, hypertension, than do the whole wheat products. But I still think that they’re all whole grain products, are important and good sources of nutrition for us.
KIRK HAMILTON: I know an area of interest of yours is soy protein or soy in the diet. I know you’ve published about the lipid lowering effects of soy, I believe it was in the New England Journal of Medicine. I want to ask about soy protein versus -- you’ve already told me your thoughts about meat, but what value does soy protein have in a diabetic diet, and then maybe for overall health because there’s been some backlash against soy, possibly an agent that inhibits thyroid function and a few other things. Can you comment on the benefits of soy in diabetes and health?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: Soy in my view competes with oatmeal as the healthiest thing you can put on the table. I think soy protein is very important. First of all, soy protein is a complete protein. So if you’re getting protein from soy, you don’t have to get protein from animal products. It’s as good a protein as dairy protein or beef protein. But soy protein has with it other important phytonutrients such as the isoflavones. We’ve shown that soy reverses kidney disease in people with diabetes. Soy has unique actions in lowering blood pressure and it regulates blood flow to the kidneys and reverses kidney disease in diabetes. We’re were planning further research in Mexico feeding a soy protein supplement to protect people from going from pre-diabetes to diabetes. We don’t really know how soy protects people from developing diabetes and we are still linking up the mechanisms, but soy protein has unique benefits in protecting the pre-diabetic from developing diabetes. I recommend that anybody who has pre-diabetes get at least two servings of soy protein a day from soy milk, tofu, edamame, the green soybean, or from soy nuts, that sort of thing. I think soy is very important and protective for people with diabetes. It also lowers LDL cholesterol about 6 to 8%. It has important effect on blood lipids. Soy has been the source of attack from environmental groups who have concerns about genetically modified soy, and it’s also attracted attention from a variety of other people, but I think basically there are no hazards to eating soy except for the unusual person who has soy allergy. Soy allergy is less common than peanut allergy, but you know there is the occasional person who is allergic to soy. Soy doesn’t affect thyroid function. Soy milk is very healthy for infants if they can’t be breastfed or are allergic to cow’s milk. Soy is an excellent food for infants and the studies have shown in Iowa and in Arkansas that it doesn’t have any adverse effects on adults who were fed soy as infants and children. I think that a lot of the charges on soy are just not based on science. There’s been a rabid group of people who have attacked soy. I think there have been a lot of anti-soy things that have led to misconceptions about soy. I think the recent data show that soy is protective from breast cancer. What happens is eating soy as an adolescent is like an early pregnancy, associated with protection from the breast cancer. Allowing the breasts to develop fully and the breast buds to develop fully early protects from developing breast cancer. Soy does that like early pregnancy does. I think that soy is an excellent food that has many health benefits and I think that people ought to consider having two servings of soy a day if they can.
KIRK HAMILTON: Let me kind of wrap this up and come to a question that is kind of the title of this interview. If we went on this vegan diet and from what I hear you saying, a vegetarian diet, but if essentially you’re going to be on a no fat, or very low fat diet, it’s going to be pretty close to being a vegan diet. If you went on this whole food vegan diet, could we just wipe out type II diabetes virtually?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: Yes. I’ve seen this is anecdotally. I don’t have data on this, but I’ve seen people who have avoided diabetes for 10, 15 years. I’ve reversed diabetes. I have one minister who came to me over 20 years ago taking big doses of insulin. I put him on an intensive diet and exercise program and he lost some weight and he’s gone 20 years without insulin. I am regularly seeing people who come off insulin. The first man I treated was a type I diabetic. His insulin dose went from 65 units to 35 units. That was 35 years ago and I last saw him at the VA five years ago. He’d gone 30 years with no complications from diabetes -- 50 years with no complications! Eligible for a Joslin medal and his insulin dose was still at 35 units. Basically the sort of diet we are talking about can, if somebody has pre-diabetes, prevent them from getting diabetes for 20+ years. I think for people who have type II diabetes, they can reverse diabetes, go off insulin, go off medicine for 10, 15, 20 years.
KIRK HAMILTON: That sounds like a good thing to do. Basically you’re advocating almost a four food group diet which would be grains, fruit, vegetables, legumes.
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: Uh-hum.
KIRK HAMILTON: And keep the oils down. Let me wrap this up then. I’d like to get your input on type I diabetes prevention. I’ve heard about early cow’s milk introduction possibly causing an autoimmune reaction that might attack the pancreas. Recently I was at a conference at the University of California San Diego and Dr. Garland spoke about vitamin D deficiency in infants possibly setting the stage for some kind of autoimmune reaction. Do you have any comments on the prevention of type I diabetes?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: You know, that’s something that I have not followed closely and I don’t really know. I know that vitamin D is hot. Vitamin D also appears to be protective from type II diabetes. But I can’t comment on that intelligently.
KIRK HAMILTON: Are there any other closing comments you would like to make to wrap this up?
DR. JAMES W. ANDERSON: I think that a plant based diet – and I’m not a fanatic you know, I’ve only become a vegetarian myself for two years. So, we’ve not really been rabid recommenders of vegetarian diets, but we think plant based diets with limitations in high fat animal products are really important for us. If your listeners want to ask me questions I have a blog that I try to answer questions. They can Google “Nutdoc” – that’s not crazy doc, but it’s nutrition doctor. If they want to Google “Nutdoc” I could try to answer questions for them. (http://nutdoc.wordpress.com/about/)
KIRK HAMILTON: I’d like to wrap up with some closing thoughts about Dr. James W. Anderson’s excellent interview and some of the key points that he made. One is he obviously doesn’t restrict carbohydrates. He would encourage whole grains, but in general carbohydrates are good for diabetics. He would decrease anything that has fat in it, and he makes a good point of specifically mentioning meat. He makes it very clear that he has shown he can reverse diabetes with aggressive lifestyle management with the high carbohydrate diet, high in fiber, and with exercise. If nothing else, you can slow the progression. You can improve type I diabetes with the high carbohydrate, high fiber diet and definitely reduce medications and insulin. Soy was the other topic that he talked about. It has been in great debate in alternative medicine circles and some traditional circles with regards to its health benefits or is it bad for the thyroid, good for the thyroid and other issues? Does it increase breast cancer or doesn’t it? But in the last year, I have gone to several conferences and the overwhelming data shows that soy is good, and when I get confused, I look to healthy cultures. When you look at the elderly Okinawans or the Asian cultures or different cultures that use soy products, they have lower instances of chronic disease. Now that’s not the only thing they eat, but it’s a big part of their dietary regimen. I can’t see a problem with soy unless you’re sensitive to it, and I would eat organic soy. I don’t think we still know enough about the long-term consequences of genetically modified products. When you look at the actual diet that he encourages, it’s really a four food group diet much like Dr. Neal Barnard’s discussion that we had recently. The four food groups are grains, preferably whole grains, fruits, vegetables and legumes. He is very cautious about nuts or seeds or any even natural oils such as olive oil due to their excess fat content which could lead to excess calorie consumption. What I tell my patients is if they are lean and their ideal body weight, then using olive oil and nuts and seeds sparingly, or moderately, is probably acceptable. In closing I think the question has been answered. Is diabetes reversible?...Yes, it is, but you have to do an aggressive lifestyle and plant-based diet and exercise program to achieve this.
Again, I want to thank Dr. James W. Anderson for his excellent work over at least 30 or 40 years working on this particular topic and remember until next time…Be and Stay Well.
© copyright 2009, Prescription 2000, Inc., www.prescription2000.com
No part of this interview may be copied or reprinted in any form, electronic or print, without written permission from Prescription 2000, Inc.
